Evolution of Collective Consciousness (Deep Transformation Podcast – Part 1)

Roger Walsh: Roger, welcome to today's episode of Deep Transformation: Self, Society, Spirit. I'm Roger Walsh, and our co-host is the distinguished John Dupuy. Our guest today is the truly remarkable Chris Bache, who is an internationally known professor of Philosophy and Religious Studies, an author, an award-winning teacher, and an internationally known speaker. Usually in these dialogues, John and I try to stay in the background. But the topic today is so remarkable, with experiences described as literally out of this world, that I want to take a moment to give context for the discussion.

Compared to the world's many cultures, Western culture is unusual in a variety of ways. In fact, researchers have recently described this as "W.E.I.R.D"—Western, Industrialized, Educated, Rich, and Democratic. So much research has been done on Westerners that it was assumed that our characteristics were common to the world's cultures. But now we're beginning to see that isn't true and that other cultures have their own richnesses and gifts.

One very important distinction between traditional Western culture and most of the world's cultures is in their attitude towards and use of altered states of consciousness. Anthropologist Erika Bourguignon discovered in her world survey that over 90% of the world's cultures have institutionalized altered states of consciousness. They use a variety of practices to induce specific states of consciousness and then mine them for information and wisdom. These cultures venerate states such as dreams, hypnosis, trance, meditation, and other practices. Anthropologists now call these cultures "polyphasic," meaning that they draw understanding of reality from many phases of consciousness.

By contrast, Western culture is pretty unique in having been, until very recently, a "monophasic" culture, drawing understanding of ourselves and the world almost entirely from the usual waking state and looking down on other states as inferior or deluded. But that began to change in the '60s with the introduction of psychedelics, soon followed by an influx of Asian practices like meditation and yoga, and the rediscovery and rebirth of Western contemplative practices. Now we have in the West a wide variety of practices for inducing altered states. The West is undergoing a dramatic transformation from a monophasic culture to a polyphasic culture, where we begin to appreciate, research, and draw understanding from multiple states of consciousness.

One of the most potent ways of inducing altered states is with psychedelics, which started our cultural transformation. It's now a subject of rigorous research at places like Johns Hopkins University, where scientists and clinicians are discovering that psychedelics have a wide variety of therapeutic applications, as well as profound spiritual uses. This, of course, is not new to the rest of the world, but these are remarkable findings in Western research.

We're very fortunate to have with us a man who has devoted his life to the research of these curious compounds. He has done this both through academic research and comparative cultural analysis, as well as through a remarkably intense, long-lasting, carefully analyzed, systematic exploration of these substances. His experiences are nothing less than extraordinary and have far-reaching implications for our understanding of the fundamental nature of reality and ourselves.

Chris did this in a systematic investigation and was able to reflect on his firsthand observations with the eye of a trained researcher, philosopher, and theologian. He's pulled together cross-cultural, historical, and religious evidence to bear on his explorations. He's a prolific author, and his books include Dark Night, Early Dawn, The Living Classroom, and most recently, the mind-boggling LSD and the Mind of the Universe, wherein he details his exploration of psychedelics and the profound insights they opened for him.

That's a long introduction, but it felt important to give context for the remarkable experiences Chris will be sharing with us. I've just spent the weekend revisiting his book, and once again, I feel like my worldview has been expanded multiple times and challenged in very valuable ways. Chris, it's truly a delight and an honor to be with you today. Thank you so much for joining us.

Chris Bache: Thank you, Roger. It's a very warm introduction, and I'm just delighted to be here with you and John today. It's a pleasure.

Roger Walsh: Well, there are many places we can go with this, and hopefully we will.

John Dupuy: Allow me to give my two cents, please. Yes. Last week, Roger asked me if I wanted to have Christopher Bache on, and I was thrilled. Immediately, I ordered the book and got the audio version, which got me through the weekend. I just want to mention that your book Dark Night, Early Dawn was one of the most important books I've ever read. It helped stabilize my understanding of non-duality. Something in that book consolidated it for me and made it accessible in a stable form ever since then. That's a tremendous gift.

This recent book I've been listening to is unlike anything I've experienced. You're either completely sane or completely insane. But everything I've learned and experienced along these lines says it rings of deep truth. The very humble way you present it, what's going on personally in your life — it's trustworthy. Someone with an open mind can trust what you're saying. This could be a bringing together of everything we've been working on, in a new, holistic vision that transforms us from a reality where many are suffering to one that's thoroughly changed. It is a 1,000% change in viewpoint. I'm not using hyperbole; it's that significant.

Chris Bache: Thank you. Your description, John, touches me deeply, especially knowing that something I've written has influenced your experience of non-duality.

Roger Walsh: Chris, I think everyone will want to know what motivated you to begin this extraordinary quest. Could you say a bit about what you did to induce these experiences and what motivated you to start?

Chris Bache: All my life I've had a deep passion to understand our universe. I was initially in the seminary training to be a Catholic priest. I later got degrees in theology and finished at Brown in philosophy of religion, but ended as a convinced agnostic. Yet my passion to understand what’s real, why there’s suffering, and whether there’s intelligence in existence pushed me forward.

After I finished my dissertation, I realized that future important contributions to my field, philosophy of religion, would come from experiential rather than purely intellectual inquiries. Upon reading Stan Grof’s Realms of the Human Unconscious, I became convinced that LSD and psychedelics could safely explore consciousness, far beyond one's personal unconscious. Before too long, it was apparent that my experiences were not related solely to personal transformation but engaged with and aimed at the healing and transformation of the human species.

I worked systematically — over 20 years — with 73 high-dose LSD sessions. Initially, I began this work within the framework of an individual healing model. LSD can hyper-amplify consciousness, pushing it both deep and wide. But this model of personal transformation quickly gave way to a larger context, as the unfolding experiences revealed a universal scale.

Understanding and integration took decades, and the writing spanned five years. My earlier inclination was to delay publishing until posthumously, but the urgency of our times dictated otherwise. There’s a significant collective transformation occurring, and it's crucial to contribute what I have learned.

Roger Walsh: It's extraordinary work, and it really was work — rigorous and courageous. You went through the hell realms, not just once, but repeatedly. I found myself bowing to your courage. You found value in all those experiences, and I’m curious about what kept you going.

Chris Bache: Stan Grof’s guidance was instrumental. Trusting the process was key. Many times, experiences were inscrutable, yet surrender led to a transformation — a Death-Rebirth cycle, purification leading into descriptions that allowed integration of insights, resulting in balance between purification and ecstatic experiences. Initially, confronting the ocean of suffering was a challenge, but it became part of an overcoming familiar in spiritual tradition, a healing of humanity's wounds, part of a larger historical unfolding.

John Dupuy: Did you feel guided or held as you navigated these experiences?

Chris Bache: Yes, every step was met. There was an intelligence that orchestrated and met me, directing, understanding, carrying me through phases that earlier seemed ungraspable. It's challenging — even disorienting at times — but systematic acclimation leads to sustained, conscious engagement within dimensions previously insurmountable. I learned true transcendence integrates experiences back into our reality, helping it seep deeply into our being.

John Dupuy: In the book, you discuss the rewarding nature of engaging deeply even with hell realms, underscoring their preparative and purifying role for the revelations you received.

Chris Bache: Yes, it’s complex. While personal purifications taper with ego death, the wider ocean of collective suffering indicated a healing of species history, pivotal in expeditions clearing ancestral burdens. Taking on these sufferings wasn't solely for me but something envisioned before birth, rewarding beyond worth, universal recompense flowing in forms sustaining my soul’s path — a task meant to be fulfilled. Giving to the universe inevitably births what you need in return, as part of our oneness.

Roger Walsh: A remarkable shift —seeing individual quests expand into collective transformations. It signifies an elemental world view and an intuitive, soul-level recognition akin to collective consciousness itself. Would you say more on this shift?

Chris Bache: Initially, I worried these experiences implied ego inflation, but they instead pointed toward the complexity of subject-participation — entering vast pre-existing consciousness fields. In this deeper context, my personal existence felt secondary; experiences actively unfolded cosmic reality. The axial role wasn't mine but consciousness's; in its grandeur, I was merely the observer. This shifting from individual-centered to collective-consciousness-centric experience radically altered cognition and existential grounding — an enveloping cosmic play requiring deeper comprehension beyond usual frameworks, reflecting the uncontainable breadth of ultimate cosmic unfoldment.

Roger Walsh: Could you clarify, Chris, regarding the frequent high doses? What were the specific doses?

Chris Bache: I used doses aiming at 600 micrograms but, accounting for variability, can say 500 to 600 micrograms, a considerable quantum.

Roger Walsh: That's indeed a high dose of LSD. I'd love to explore your Death-Rebirth interpretations. These states, recognized across spiritual traditions, posed as recurrent shifts. Repeated death to old limits, reconstitution of widened identity — does this resonate? Could it follow cosmic leela or play, informed by cosmic beings' activities you mentioned? The cosmic separation necessitating renewal—your articulation?

Chris Bache: Your understanding aligns broadly. In one facet, ego diminishes as transformations enlarge identities, yielding profound insights, while deeper cosmic ontology reflects leela — an evolving elucidation permitting universe's reinvigorated narrative reintegration. Identity's enduring refrain sustains cosmic participation — the split embedded, cosmic play maintained through rebirth — consciousness engaging perpetually anew, embodying transcendental iteration’s continuity.

Chris Bache: I think your description of ego death is spot on. What dies is what is consumed—our self-representation, our sense of identity amassed from our physical experience and our time-space existence. I also want to mention that every medicine has a certain range, a certain signature and power. Psilocybin, for instance, has a depth of range that, even if repeated, takes you into an upper register, but there is still a limit. Ayahuasca has a deeper upper register. Salvia divinorum, ketamine, and 5-MeO-DMT all have unique ranges. LSD also has a range, and doses affect that range.

I experience Psilocybin as a body-grounded psychedelic, very much tuned to my emotional body. It opens a range but stays within certain parameters, dissolving them without shattering them as LSD does. With high doses of LSD, because of its intensity and lack of anthropological history, it shatters our time-space identity, pushing us into a spiritual reality. Returning to that place repeatedly, your experience congeals, and you develop an alternative identity I call the shamanic persona. It's a stable identity at a certain level of transpersonal reality, superordinate to the egoic identity. If you manage your experiences well, it stays stable, allowing you to acclimate at that spiritual level.

But if you keep pushing the edge with a strong enough chemical and focused intent, you hit a ceiling where another round of death occurs. What dies is not the ego but the shamanic persona—a holder of a certain level of transpersonal experience. To go deeper, that identity must die. You transition into another reality where the universe's workings differ. You must acclimate to that reality, each step deeper requiring adaptation to a higher level of energy. It involves intense cleansing because you're learning to stabilize consciousness at extremely high energy levels. What eventually emerged from this is the understanding that death and rebirth are stage-specific. The universe has many levels, and systematically pushing through them brings you to gates where sacrifices are asked.

Ultimately, after repeated deaths, the concept of death becomes meaningless because you always rebirth. The Phoenix always rises. The concept of death yields to purification. I learned that all dying is purification. When purification reaches deep enough to destructure your self or reality representation, it becomes purification unto death. It's dissolution, yet it remains a purification process.

John Dupuy: So, Chris, following up on what Roger asked—what dies? Well, what doesn't die?

Chris Bache: When we go deep, we realize everything is dying and living constantly. There are no stable things which aren't dying in this universe. To understand that everything is transition and fluidity is considered a great accomplishment. People have asked me what dies. What I will say is there is continuity of memory. If you organize your sessions well, there's continuity of recall. You might say memory doesn't die, but I don't think that's the best way to describe it. Memory shatters and reconstitutes. I don't know what doesn't die, but here's something...

John Dupuy: Is being purified, right? What is that that's being purified?

Chris Bache: I'd go farther and say life gives birth to individuality—not an ego, but individuality matures as the soul matures. Many spiritual traditions believe the individual is an illusion, that the goal is to dissolve into oneness. I understand that cosmology, but it doesn't jive with my experience. My experience is that the universe intensely works to birth and refine individuality. We die to grow up; we evolve. Reincarnation ages us stage by stage, integrating all our experiences into a singularity. In sessions, experiencing that singularity brought an awareness beyond anything before. I was an individual within a boundless existence. Memory intact, residing in a state of pure śūnyatā, transparent to all existence. This is what I believe the universe is working towards.

Roger Walsh: Chris, can you draw a distinction between individuality and separation?

Chris Bache: When Buddhism teaches śūnyatā and no-self, it defines a self-experience cut off from others and the universe. When that self dies, we experience individuality porous to others, living in compassion, in communion with layers of consciousness. An individual within a boundaryless condition.

Roger Walsh: And it sounds as though you're confirming individuality's value. There are traditions where the self is deemed an illusion. But your experience suggests beauty in individuality. Is that correct?

Chris Bache: Yes, before time and space, when the absolute chose to manifest existence, the physical universe's density shattered oneness into pieces that could awaken individually within the divine. This gift of individuality is profound. I don't think the intention is to destroy it; rather, the universe fosters our individuality as we awaken.

John Dupuy: What you describe aligns deeply with the preciousness of the individual. It seems there's a responsibility akin to a Bodhisattva or Christ-like nature—taking on responsibility for the collective. That deep understanding adds nobility to the task, transcending mere narcissism.

Chris Bache: Yes, it's a story of divine incarnation. Though Christology rendered Jesus unique, I see him as a prototype.

Roger Walsh: That distinction happens across major religions—founders made unique or seen as exemplars. Distinguishing between those interpretations is key, Chris.

Chris Bache: As you said, John, once we tap into that universal essence, all aspects of life must align with it. Love, compassion, and social justice arise naturally.

Most importantly, you don't have to go where I went to awaken. If using psychedelics for spiritual awakening, low doses are sufficient. Dissolving the ego doesn't require shattering time or space. My journey aimed for awakening but pushed into cosmological exploration. Some teachers would critique this, but my work ultimately leaned towards cosmic exploration.

John Dupuy: You're a philosopher and pursued this path precisely. There’s no flip-flopping there.

Roger Walsh: You had a focused aspiration, offering yourself similarly to a Bodhisattva's intention. It seems your prayer was answered, given the wisdom you've shared.

John Dupuy: Chris, how do you keep yourself grounded after such profound journeys?

Chris Bache: In the book, I ask about the value of true but temporary knowledge. I don’t doubt my experiences were true, but they were temporary. I can’t live in those states, at least not at my present psycho-spiritual development. I draw from them in meditation and practice, but focus now on grounding and staying in touch with Earth. As a teacher, I relish discovering and sharing knowledge.

During my years of work, I couldn't share directly in my classes. "Dark Night, Early Dawn" covers the first half of my journey. The other book, "LSD and the Mind of the Universe," shares more. But the most critical part isn't my story—it's humanity's story. The human family is evolving; we're at a significant historical pivot. There’s a tectonic shift in the collective psyche, changing human history forever.

Years later, I dissolved into humanity's future—a death and rebirth not bound to specifics. The ordeal will feel like the end, but we emerge changed, maturing to a more open, profound state. This impending transformation coincides with a global systems crisis, transitioning us from egoic to soul-level consciousness. The awakening reaches many, with practices contributing to collective healing and awakening something new.

Roger Walsh: Chris, your vision of humanity's future aligns with many acknowledging our converging crisis and opportunity. Dewayne Elgin highlights this time as critical. Transition could lead to civilizational collapse—or, with awareness, rebirth. Could you speak more on the resonance of your insights with this emerging understanding?

Chris Bache: Dwayne is indeed a brother in this. My exploration was visionary, not data-based, shaped by visions in the early '90s. I wasn't aware then as now of our ecological situation. My initial vision took a year to recover, feeling like I walked Hiroshima before the bomb. Profound compassion filled me for those involved in this grand exercise. This knowing, absorbed in my body, verified by later scholarly insights, speaks not of survival doubt but of a global, crushing ordeal.

Roger Walsh: A very painful but perhaps necessary vision. The idea that we come through stronger is poignant.

Chris Bache: We don't come through, but a new 'we' is born. I believe that these historical pressures building up are literally a birth. They are truly giving birth to the future human. But then the question is, what will this future human look like? What is actually being born in history? Is this just an analogy, or do we truly mean it's a birth? The way I understand this, I look at it through the lens of reincarnation. I believe that reincarnation is an empirically demonstrated fact. Ian Stevenson and other scholars have demonstrated this. My first book on life cycles was about reincarnation, and when I look at the universe, I see our planet pulsing in and out of time and space, reincarnating beings. I see us, century by century, millennia by millennia, reincarnating time and again. Gestation is long; labor and birth are short and intense. I think the human family has been gestating the future human for hundreds of thousands of years, gestating in the dynamics of reincarnation. The labor taking place is a short, intense, convulsive period. But what we are giving birth to is already foreshadowed once we understand these dynamics.

What is coming forward, I think, is truly the consciousness that holds all of our reincarnation experiences as a simultaneous present. This is a consciousness we contact if everything goes well when we die. When we're born, we contract into a small ego; when we die, we return to the soul. When we're born, we contract again; when we die, we return to the soul that holds all our memories, not fragmented but integrated as a single being. If we keep this up, sooner or later, the soul awakens inside human incarnation. That's the being being born in this historical crisis. Souls will live on this planet differently than egos do. I think all the great spiritual leaders of the Axial Age were foreshadowing this and giving us teachings to help bring it about. They taught us to think deep, look deep, feel deep, and to allow the needs of others to supersede our own, without canceling them out. They were inviting us to live broadly and deeply. Now, as we try to become one planet politically and ecologically, the world citizen emerges, matched by something taking place inside us. As the world becomes one, so too are we trying to become one soul integrated within.

My visionary experience is that while nothing is predestined, we make it. This is just the next stage of human evolution. Evolution will continue as long as the universe is alive. Whatever we're doing now will eventually be superseded by another stage in our development, but this stage is particularly important.

Roger Walsh: In one sentence, you elucidated a critical point for this possible rebirth of the human species: Nothing is predestined. It's up to us. That's a big statement.

Chris Bache: Yeah, if everything were predestined, there would be no point to incarnating. If everything had to be a certain way, then we wouldn't be learning, and without learning, there is no adventure. It is open-ended. We could lose this planet, we could lose this opportunity. It's going to require our very best to come through this changed and built better.

Roger Walsh: From that perspective, your vision may not be about predicting the future but showing the possibilities we can open ourselves to.

Chris Bache: Yes, and I have to acknowledge that sometimes during near-death experiences, people see a life preview and sometimes a future they can change. Ken Rings' work, "Heading Toward Omega," touches on this conditional future, not a predetermined one. What I'm seeing is a possible future, maybe a probable future, but we still have to enact it. Additionally, some of my experiences have taken me into what I call deep time—into the future not as a future event but as a past accomplishment. From this deep, cosmological perspective, I would say we will make this transition. Nature knows what it’s doing. The universe, with its DNA and galaxies, brings us to this critical turning point prepared. We will become more than we have ever been.

Roger Walsh: Beautiful, may it be so. From my perspective, without your visions, it seems the only thing to do is to offer our lives in the service of human well-being and survival. Is that congruent with your view?

Chris Bache: Absolutely. It’s going to take our very best efforts to move forward deeply, with an open heart and mind. All hands on deck.

John Dupuy: Chris, my impression is you've heeded the call in your life. You got educated, which put you in a position to share what you were called to learn. You had the courage to complete 73 journeys, and now you're at peace, giving back this vision and continuing the work.

Chris Bache: Yes, it is a good place to be. It's always a good place when one feels they’ve done what was asked of them, and the rest is gravy. Finishing the book, I knew I could die at peace. Now, I'm figuring out how to make what I did useful to others. How can I serve people with the knowledge I have, supporting those on their spiritual and intellectual paths? I’m still figuring that out.

Roger Walsh: Beautiful, that sounds like a question that's been challenging you. It seems like there are two kinds of questions: knowledge questions and wisdom questions. Wisdom questions can be asked repeatedly, taking you deeper. This seems like your sacred question.

Chris Bache: It is, and when I'm with like-minded spirits talking about these things, something happens inside me. My shell is thin, and I become porous, allowing a larger knowing to flow through me. The teaching teaches itself. That's why I wrote "The Living Classroom." Though I never discussed my psychedelic work with students, pursuing deep consciousness in my spiritual practice activated something in the classroom. I had to learn to manage this activation to keep everything safe. I learned that deep practice naturally ripples out, touching people around us naturally. Questions that prompt reflections on life generate a transmission that can sometimes heal beyond anyone’s control.

Since the book came out, COVID has shut down personal contact, so I’ve been incubating ideas. I’m about to begin a seven-week online course on the book, to explore this transmission online, even though I’d prefer in-person interactions.

John Dupuy: Well, it seems like it works.

Roger Walsh: And what's the name of the course, so listeners can find it?

Chris Bache: It hasn't been named yet. It's on The Shift Network, focusing on "LSD and the Mind of the Universe." It might be "Diamonds from Heaven" or "A Spiritual Journey into the Mind and Heart of the Universe." It starts November 30.

John Dupuy: Are people responding to the book? Have you met other travelers with similar experiences?

Chris Bache: It's going as you say. There's nothing unique about my experiences; it’s about collective experiences that push boundaries in certain ways. Many write to me, saying I've clarified their experiences, even those who've never used psychedelics. It's a large pattern emerging within our collective psyche. The books have resonated with a wide audience.

The focus of the psychedelic renaissance on therapy is crucial, healing the human psyche with controlled studies. My work rocks that boat somewhat because it doesn't follow those therapeutic protocols. It involves high doses and taps into something challenging to integrate with current therapeutic models. Yet, there's an underground community that hasn't waited for scientific validation, and my work resonates well with them.

Roger Walsh: Yes, and you're still exploring integration after 20 years of assimilating these experiences. This essential work of integration—reflection, understanding implications, dialoguing in community—deserves more attention. How best should we live?

Chris Bache: Yes, and there's a book called "Psychedelics and Psychotherapy" focusing on integration. The issue isn't just breaking through to these consciousness dimensions; it’s about integrating them. How do we do that individually, socially, and intellectually? Psychedelics support a paradigm shift to a universe that's alive with intelligence behind physical existence.

In my experience, I also learned what not to do. I pushed myself harder than was wise. Integration must be thorough, and I paid attention throughout my work. But when I stopped sessions, I was left with an unfulfilled longing and entered a "deep sadness." I realized something was wrong. It wasn’t too much divinity but too much transcendence. I had lost my bearings in time and space, and I needed to ground myself in physical being. Integration sometimes requires stepping back to let transformation enter our physicality.

Roger Walsh: You're talking about traps in deep work, beyond the usual challenges like fear or ego inflation. You hint at subtle traps that come with enormous energy and possibilities. You're providing us with a map of advanced traps.

Chris Bache: Yes, the traps of too much of a good thing. We can bite off more than we can chew in one lifetime. Staying grounded helps avoid ego inflation, and my wife and other companions kept me honest. The important thing is not what happens during a session but how we live afterward. It's the life you build with these insights.

Roger Walsh: Your approach let you navigate out of subtle traps. What do you attribute that to?

Chris Bache: Good company—my former wife, Carol, my children, my teaching, and studying great masters. They kept me grounded. My teaching at an open enrollment university kept me focused on honest work. It's a process of absorbing extraordinary experiences.

The isolation of doing psychedelics in a psychedelic-phobic society was another challenge. I had to retire early to write this book honestly, and it took years to get into the psychological space to share this deeply. The experiences weren't given to me for me but to share and help the collective. By letting go of personal ownership, I could release them.

Roger Walsh: Your experiences seem to align with those like A. H. Almaas's insights—that there's no final experience but endless openings to more possibilities. Each opening is a portal.

Chris Bache: Absolutely. Opening to more and more possibilities can always unfold, with each experience deepening the journey.

Chris Bache: It is, I think, and it's particularly the experience when you use, I mean, this is a path of temporary immersion. All of our practices are temporary, but this psychedelic path, particularly, is a temporary path, and that's what makes it tricky. Like you, I thought I was doing this path to get to an end state, a goal where I knew I would reach it and it would solve all my issues, whether becoming one with God or dissolving into the meta-cosmic void. And what I found was that I became one with God or one with the mind of the universe many times. There are many gradations or levels of oneness with God, and there are levels of the primal void. Eventually, there were many levels of homecoming, peace, reunion, and just relaxing into the bliss of return.

When the Diamond Luminosity opened, 15 years into the work, and I entered this hyper-clear, unbelievably clear level of awareness, in the next four years, in 26 sessions, I only touched this reality four times. Lots of purification, lots of cleansing. The second time I touched it was the 50th session, and I was as deep into the universe as I would ever go, far beyond time and space, dissolved completely into this ecstasy of the pure Luminosity. Then my visual field pivoted 90 degrees, and I saw reality filled with an even greater light than the Diamond Luminosity, and a ray of light from that reality shattered me, taking 10 minutes to recover. That's when it sunk in that it's an infinite progression. You stop when you can take no more. You stop when the ecstasy or the cycle of death and rebirth becomes too much. It's endless, and that's why I would be gentler with myself if I were to do it again. It's not about reaching an end state—it’s about opening up, letting the wisdom, beauty, and healing in, going through purification, and becoming more alive and conscious in the dance of life.

Roger Walsh: And you had that recognition there was always more, and the always more required something of you. It required another level of purification for each taste of that something more. You alluded to what you called the Diamond Illumination, which felt like one of the most impactful of all your experiences. You mentioned in the book that for this, you would gladly die. Could you expand on this realization and how it relates to other traditions?

Chris Bache: As I understand it, the reality I was taken into in those four sessions is a reality outside of the Bardo, extra-Samsara reality, outside of time and space. In the first two times, I was taken deeper and deeper into it and had the encounter with what I call the Absolute Light, showing me it's an infinite progression. Then, the next two times, this Diamond Luminosity began to crunch itself deeper into my physical being. It was coming in rather than me going out, literally crunching into my psyche and body as if changing me at a cellular level. Eventually, it changed my perception, giving me a temporary experience I call Diamond Vision—seeing 1000 times more sharply and clearly than before. I realized I was seeing through the eyes of the Future Human, that our senses are being elevated the more consciousness we absorb. This crunching into me is an accelerated process taking place slowly for all of us in reincarnation and evolution. One of the reasons I stopped my sessions was to let this process reach its natural conclusion, with the movement now being the external coming deeper into me.

Reflecting on the Diamond Luminosity, parallels to spiritual traditions that come to mind, especially Buddhism, describe Dharmakāya, the clear light of absolute reality. It's the seed reality out of which all existence emerges, the love from which all love emerges, pure power from which all energy of Creation emerges—transcendent and hyper-clear. Touching that reality even once undoes centuries of living in karma's shadows. The task becomes shaping one's life to live the conditioned existence in communion with the unconditioned.

Roger Walsh: What a wonderful vision. I could see you going into your own experience, deeply touched even now, 20 or 30 years later. These experiences touched and incarnated in you, still resonating and transmitting qualities out of your description. There's the idea that awakenings, these recognitions, are just stages. Beyond that is integration, allowing it to incarnate through us. You mentioned that the Tibetan Buddhist tradition resonates with your Diamond Illumination, noting a stage beyond it of pure perception, where one's view is transformed. Could you speak more about this?

Chris Bache: There's nothing unique about my journey. I'm rediscovering things many have already found in various traditions. The technology may differ, but the core understanding of existence and insights have been with us for ages, embodied by great beings and passed down over generations. There's nothing unique in my work.

Roger Walsh: You opened to experiences others have shared and brought your unique gifts as a philosopher and theologian. It's the yes and.

Chris Bache: The mother told me, when I was unsure what to do with all of this, "Let them see me as you have seen me. They'll know what to do with it." She made it clear none of this is of my doing. It was all divine, and I have no right to hold on to any of it. It's a sentiment felt by spiritual beings who have given themselves over to intimacy with the universe. The awareness that the divine serves all in the end. It's the mother's love for all her children that's the driving force.

Roger Walsh: Your description echoed a theme in the book that the communications from profound realms were received in the first person plural, reminding me of the Qur'an where Allah speaks as "we."

Chris Bache: Yes, and I don't think it's plural like polytheism. It's vast, unable to wrap our minds around it. So enormous it swallows our capacity to describe it, and "we" speaks to that more effectively than "I." Even the greatest spiritual geniuses of our generation wouldn't compare to masters 500,000 years from now. The experience of an individual is limited by the capacity of the collective psyche. As it evolves, so does the limit of individual spiritual genius.

Roger Walsh: I'm going to ask an impossible question, but it must be asked. After all these experiences, openings, and dramatic impacts on your understanding, how would you describe the nature of reality now?

Chris Bache: I'll do my best to answer and not weep as I do so.

John Dupuy: Go ahead and weep if you need to.

Chris Bache: I see the universe as pure genius, saturated with ambition and love, orchestrating conditions for progression. Birth of stars and planets, self-aware species—all acts of unspeakable genius. I see death and rebirth, reincarnation, Bardo as compassionate blankets keeping us safe until we can commune with the true power. Until fully congealed, touching that power would shatter us. Every journey I’ve taken reveals genius and purposeful intent. It's always pressing for more. Behind every complex compassion is a potent love that mirrors the genius of creation, hard for me to take in at first. I’ve become more bhakti than I imagined, impelled by this love and patience.

Roger Walsh: Thank you, Chris. That's a true transmission of the magnitude, genius, and heart-boundlessness of love you saw. It's inspiring that your direct experience echoes discoveries of great saints and traditions. Stan Grof's synthesis in "The Cosmic Game" echoes similar findings, most synchronous with Kashmir Shaivism. So from one view, what you saw has been reported umpteen times, no big deal. But thank you—your integrated report affirms perennial wisdom in a new way.

John Dupuy: You’ve included it all somehow. It's like someone telling me about the burning bush, and I smell the smoke! Holding on to humility and humanity, it's such a gift, brother. Thank you.

Roger Walsh: There's a theme underlying what you've said—being guided into, offered, graced by intelligence and love far beyond. It resonates deeply that we can trust ourselves. Our minds aren't malevolent cesspools of pain. When treated well, our minds are self-healing, self-actualizing, with profound trust in ourselves and a greater reality.

Chris Bache: Yes, self-correcting and healing. We bring awareness to our knots, and they untie. Pain heals itself, becomes lighter, clearer. The genius of our being shows more strongly as we clarify. There's no absolute membrane between individual existence and the universe. Our awareness bubbles up in totality, in each other, on the planet—it’s the same life. We understand existence better, relating to the universe's beauty as a reflection of our own. Everything becomes simpler, transparent, and healing.

Roger Walsh: Wow, Chris, you've given us an incredible gift. You're aware it's not yours alone, but you're the instrument through which it came. It's a priceless gift. I bow to you.

Chris Bache: Gentlemen, I know enough about your work to bow deeply to you too. We've all worked these fields a long time, been nurtured by wisdom—I return the bow.

Roger Walsh: In spiritual traditions, we bow to each other, recognizing who we truly are. Chris, is there anything you'd like to say by way of completion?

Chris Bache: Thank you. I become more whole speaking about these things; it’s what I was designed to do. There aren't many places for such a conversation. Thank you. If there were a gift from my experiences, it would be letting go of the fear of death. If you're afraid of death, you have life turned upside down. Death is a liberation, a return—joy. Birth begins the hard cycle; death ends it and starts the easy part.

Roger Walsh: A wonderful flip on our conventional understanding. I’ll repeat: what a gift. Your books, "Dark Night, Early Dawn," "The Living Classroom," and "LSD and the Mind of the Universe"—we can’t recommend them highly enough. It’s been a sheer delight, Chris. Thank you on our behalf and all those you touch. Deep gratitude. This has been Deep Transformation, a dialog with Chris Bache.