--- title: LSD and the Mind of the Universe – Interview with Stephen Gray slug: 2021-05-03-lsd-and-the-mind-of-the-universe-interview-with-stephen-gray date: 2021-05-03 type: interview channel: StephenGray Vision language: en license: CC0-1.0 identifiers: wikidata_person: Q112496741 openalex_person: A5045900737 people: - name: Christopher M. Bache wikidata: Q112496741 openalex: A5045900737 provenance: source: "otter+diarist->normalization" transcriber: "Otter.ai (diarized, speaker-attributed) + GPT-5 normalization" diarist_txt: /Users/howardrhee/Documents/chris-bache-archive/sources/diarist/2021-05-03-lsd-and-the-mind-of-the-universe-interview-with-stephen-gray.txt diarist_srt: /Users/howardrhee/Documents/chris-bache-archive/sources/diarist/2021-05-03-lsd-and-the-mind-of-the-universe-interview-with-stephen-gray.srt diarist_sha1: f016a985cf9b0ab0676e0cc8d2c4e5d99544306f --- **Stephen Gray: ** Welcome, everybody. This is the very first YouTube channel and also audio podcast on Anchor, where it will also show up. The series is called, as you may have noticed, Stephen Gray Vision—Stephen Gray, all one word. And the purpose of these is to explore the possibilities of an awakening humanity. I guess that's the simplest way of putting it. You will be able to subscribe to these. I hope to be able to put a subscribe button up here somewhere at some point, and some contact information both at the beginning and the end. I'm very excited because this is the very first one of these in a series that I hope to continue for quite a while. Chris Bache is my first guest, and we both acknowledge, just before starting the recording, that we're both feeling honored about this. That's really exciting in itself. Before I actually ask Chris to say anything, I'm going to read a short bio and add a couple of little comments of my own. Christopher M. Bache officially is a professor emeritus in the Department of Philosophy and Religion at Youngstown State University, where he taught for 33 years. He is also adjunct faculty at the California Institute of Integral Studies and a fellow at the Institute of Noetic Sciences. Chris's work explores the philosophical implications of Non-ordinary states of consciousness, especially psychedelic states. Chris has written three books: *Lifecycles: Reincarnation and the Web of Life*, *Dark Night, Early Dawn* which I read about 20 years ago—a wonderful book—*The Living Classroom* which I have not read, and his more recent *LSD and the Mind of the Universe,* subtitled *Diamonds from Heaven*. I’m going to be asking Chris to give a summary of the 20-year journey that he went on that's described in *LSD and the Mind of the Universe*. I would suggest, if you really want to get into the details, short of reading the book, which is a stunner, just amazing, go on YouTube and look up "Diamonds from Heaven, Timewaiver, Summerworld 2018." There's a 50-minute talk that they recorded of Chris going through the whole journey. I have the book right here, *LSD and the Mind of the Universe: Diamonds from Heaven*. Chris, don't let me forget at the end to ask you for any kind of contact information or links that you would like people to follow up on. Anyway, welcome, Chris, to my inaugural Stephen Gray Vision YouTube Channel series. **Chris Bache: ** It's a pleasure to be with you today, Stephen, an honor to be in your memorial voyage. **Stephen Gray: ** All right. So, there are lots of things I want to ask you about and discuss with you. I think a good place to start would be if you could give a relatively short summary—because people can go and look at the videos on YouTube—maybe, I don't know, about five minutes. In the talks, you talk a little bit about what got you into it. Maybe just a real brief reference to why you did this in the first place, a little bit about the 20-year journey, and perhaps where it went after that, something like that. **Chris Bache: ** So, basically, what you're asking for is a highlight reel or trailer for the book? **Stephen Gray: ** Exactly. **Chris Bache: ** Well, I'm a philosopher of religion. I came to this work with an interest in the potential of psychedelics to explore the deeper reaches of consciousness and, by pushing through our personal unconscious, entering into what I eventually came to understand as the mind of the universe itself. I did 20 years of this work involving 73 high-dose LSD sessions. I'd emphasize the significance of that particular protocol—high-dose sessions working at 500 to 600 micrograms—because this opened up territory and experiences that were much deeper than are typically worked with in therapeutic settings today, which is very important work. This was different. This was a much more aggressive shattering of different levels of consciousness and the boundaries of consciousness. I worked for four years, stopped for six, then worked for ten more years, averaging about five sessions a year. The high dose allowed me to push through personal boundaries into what Stanislav Grof calls the perinatal level of consciousness—early experiences like birth and death experiences, as well as existential crises. Then I went through a profound ego death that exploded my identity, leading into early level spiritual experiences and spiritual reality. Following that, there was a more intense purification process I call the dark night of the soul. The work pivoted clearly away from personal transformation and entered into the collective psyche, focusing on the transformation of the species mind itself. After that, I was spun into archetypal reality and vast territories in the collective unconscious. I learned how our species lives as a single integrated entity, with each of us being a fractal embodiment of that being. Eventually, this led me into causal level reality, where the universe pulsed as a single entity, dissolving all boundaries—even between matter and spirit. For the last five years, I entered a domain I called the Diamond Luminosity, an extremely pure form of consciousness that Buddhism refers to as the Dharmakāya, the clear light of absolute reality. The last five years of sessions were filled with a lot of purification and healing work. Then, in my final sessions, I was shown a final vision of the human trajectory where we are in history, which had been a consistent theme in the work. The universe then wrapped it up and ushered me on my way. I began in 1979 and finished in 1999. After I finished, Spirit said to me in my meditation, "20 years in, 20 years out," meaning that it would take me 20 years to understand and digest the experiences I'd had. It just so happened, not by intent, but that *LSD and the Mind of the Universe* was published 20 years after my last session. **Stephen Gray: ** Wonderful, yes. For people watching and listening to this, if you didn't quite gather how stunning this series of journeys really has been, read the book because it's mind-blowing. It's truly paradigm-shattering material. I like to occasionally joke—with no particular offense to Terence McKenna, who did a lot of lovely work—that the descriptions he gives of where he went were just kind of tapping into the realms you've explored. A practical question: You have spoken in different ways about several things related to this. One is, you said you wouldn't do it the same way again because it was so intense, and then you also understood that it wasn't about getting anywhere particular. That's one aspect of this question. The other one is that clearly, this is not for everybody. Just on a practical level, for people who feel like they're those sorts of deep-exploring psychonauts and want to do something like this, what kind of safety protocol did you employ? **Chris Bache: ** Let's start with the safety protocol. I basically used the protocol established by Stanislav Grof and published in his book *LSD Psychotherapy*. He distinguishes between low-dose psycholytic sessions and high-dose psychedelic sessions. I always worked in isolation, in the privacy of my home or my wife's clinical office. I had a sitter—my first wife, Carol, a clinical psychologist—listening to a carefully curated playlist of music to support the deepening of the work. Sessions were internally focused, with no interface except through the music. **Stephen Gray: ** Chris, before we go any further, regarding the sitter: What would you say are the prerequisites for the sitter? Does that person need to have been to some of these inner realms themselves to do that job properly? **Chris Bache: ** Ideally, a sitter should be experienced in these domains. It depends on how interactive the work is, but the more experienced they are, the more comfortable they'll likely be. In our case, Carol wasn't interested in exploring these domains herself, but she read the literature. It worked well enough for us. The responsibility of the sitter is primarily to ensure the subject doesn't hurt themselves, manage the music, and keep the subject focused on internal processes without acting out. **Stephen Gray: ** Can you say a little about the music? How important is it to get the right kind of music? **Chris Bache: ** Yes, well, I followed Helen Bonny's recommendations, differentiating five stages of an LSD session. There's an early latency, then a high activation. You want music that encourages surrender and supports the breakthrough of defenses. After a breakthrough, you transition into the peak and want expansive music. At the end, gentle music allows processing and integration as you return to ordinary consciousness. Over time, I found indigenous music more powerful than classical music because it throws you into foreign territory, and that’s what you want to explore. **Stephen Gray: ** Absolutely. Before we get into the farther reaches of some of the experiences you had and their implications, I just watched parts of that video. You referenced William James, who said something about three stages of this kind of work you've done—exploration, recording, and sharing. **Chris Bache: ** That's my articulation based on James' work. You go into temporary Non-ordinary states, record them as clearly and precisely as possible, and retain the experiences. This retention completes the circle of learning, laying a strong foundation for the next set of experiences. Writing at the edge of my ability was an important part of the process. The reason I wouldn't do it the same way again is that it's a very taxing protocol and takes a long time to internalize. Combining different substances and working at different levels might have been gentler. Also, this journey doesn’t have a distinct end point. It's an open-ended journey, and an infinite universe. There are many levels of oneness and immersion, and I learned that the journey was about understanding and experiencing as much as possible rather than reaching a specific conclusion. **Stephen Gray: ** Yes, my old Buddhist teacher had a book called *Journey Without Goal*. Are you familiar with the 10 oxherding pictures? **Chris Bache: ** Yes, they illustrate the journey of awakening and that continual return to the always-present condition. My work started with a focus on enlightenment but then shifted to the collective evolution and supporting the transformation taking place in history. Eventually, it became an exploration of the deep structure of the universe, which doesn't necessarily align with traditional ideas of enlightenment but presents an opportunity to explore cosmic reality. **Stephen Gray: ** Wonderful. So, a question, although I'm not sure how to ask it exactly. Your kind of deep work is clearly not for the majority, yet some are called to it. How do you think others can approach this work with psychedelics? **Chris Bache: ** I hope that *LSD and the Mind of the Universe* is read by both psychedelic voyagers and those not interested in psychedelics, to share the cosmology that emerges. Even non-psychedelic seekers can find value in the understanding of reality that comes forward. Consciousness work is universal, whether through psychedelics or meditation. For those wanting to explore psychedelics, clarity of intention, meticulous set and setting, and a long-term engagement strategy are essential. Tripping can be life-changing, but for deep inner work, you need a clear field. Retention and grounding are key, particularly if you engage with radical experiences that challenge your existing perspectives. This requires stability in life and a daily spiritual practice to ground the energies and insights. **Stephen Gray: ** Yes, it's funny you mention saints and mystics. I've been wondering, where are these figures today? With so many of us on the planet, perhaps they're less visible. **Chris Bache: ** I don't know the answer to that question. That's kind of a sociological and historical question. I think there are more hidden saints than we might appreciate, but I also believe, in a fundamental way, that the age of private enlightenment is coming to an end. It's not that individual enlightenment work is unimportant—it is—but we've entered a time in history where the whole human species needs to enter into the Enlightened condition. We need to address what's holding us in this tight configuration of ego, as the civilization we're in is built by the ego, a fragmented condition threatening the vitality of all life on our planet. I think the real impetus is collective transformation, taking us to a different level of the game than we've been in for the last 2000 years. **Stephen Gray: ** Well put, beautifully. My old Buddhist teacher, Chögyam Trungpa, was critical of what he called the arhat mentality, enlightenment for self. I completely agree with you. That leads into the discussion of the great death and great awakening that you've explored in your work. We've reached a karmic comeuppance point where the fragmented ego mentality has brought the planet to a place where it's not sustainable. I'm wondering if you could talk about that. There's no timeline involved, but it feels like we're well into that vortex. Can you comment on that? **Chris Bache: ** This was a great surprise in my work. I began thinking about individual transformation, but after about four years, I began receiving visions concerning humanity's collective transformation. Consistently, these visions indicated a coming point in history of decisive transformation and evolutionary jump in consciousness—times of great blessing, great grace, illumination, and healing. Although it seemed like getting better and worse simultaneously, in 1995, I experienced what I came to understand as the death and rebirth of our species. It felt like humanity's heart was broken open during this crisis and began to change. When past the worst, a tremendous upsurge of new values emerged centered on oneness. This deep transformation reached into the collective psyche, causing an evolutionary flip of the archetype of the human psyche. This future human represents a fundamental change, reflected internally and externally as we confront global systemic issues. I had these experiences from 1985 to 1999, and it seems they are unfolding as we speak. The crises we're seeing, such as COVID-19, while serious, are not the true crisis but a teacher for the coming deeper crises. We have no choice but to go into a new future, and I believe the universe is pulling us that way. **Stephen Gray: ** Yes, and the COVID situation seems like the gods letting us down step by step, seeing what could happen during large disruptions. Whether or not people consciously pay attention, the world's been quieter and cleaner. Even if they don't consciously notice, things have gotten under their skin. At the same time, the trajectory of a great death sounds frightening. It's important for people to be a rock for others. **Chris Bache: ** It is frightening, which is why it's crucial to understand what's happening. Some look at it apocalyptically, but really, it's a birth. Gestation is long, but labor is short and intense. Humanity has been gestating the future human for thousands of years, but giving birth is convulsive. Like labor, it might look terrible, but it's transformational. The concept of the diamond soul captures the deep reconstruction of the psyche. Much like traditional views of reincarnation, where we improve incrementally, there comes a point where all lives come together, leading to a massive integration—a new singularity, the birth of soul within time. This transcends ego consciousness, requiring the expansion into soul consciousness, fostering courage, compassion, and insight to create new realities on the planet. **Stephen Gray: ** Beautifully put, yes. Necessity is the mother of invention; as conditions destabilize, human creativity will emerge. Victor Hugo said there's nothing as powerful as an idea whose time has come. So, as old ways become less viable, there will be openness to new ideas. **Chris Bache: ** I believe we're experiencing strong polarization now. Forces are pulling both toward the past and the future. The past leads to death, while the future holds collaborative potential. The courage seen through this, like the coronavirus, helps us flex wisdom and challenge misleading, divisive legacies. Supporting courage, compassion, and insight guides us in choosing the better path. **Stephen Gray: ** As Leonard Cohen said, there's a crack in everything—that's how the light gets in. Technologies, like the communication technologies we have, allow for sharing ideas instantaneously. There's potential for sharing transformative ideas globally. **Chris Bache: ** Yes, if these experiences were isolated, they might lack significance. But many have shared similar insights, from psychedelic voyagers to mystics and indigenous cultures. This is a time of maturation. We have to grow up and take responsibilities as adults. The universe has brought us this far, despite extinction events around us. I trust in the universe's wisdom; it seems to think we're ready. **Stephen Gray: ** That's why I'm happy you're my initial guest. Your work offers hope, showing who we can become and that there's a way to get there, like the Four Noble Truths. People need vision and encouragement as they face instability. This is a good time to close, but we may need to continue this conversation. You're an easy interview, articulating so clearly and beautifully. I'm really moved by what you've shared. I haven't figured out an ending yet, but I'll say it while you're here. **Chris Bache: ** Thank you for your initiative, Stephen. Your commitment to our collective transformation has been significant. Your vision for collective awakening continues in this series, and I honor that. **Stephen Gray: ** Thanks, Chris. Bishop Desmond Tutu talked about believing in the possibility of possibility. Despite ego-driven narratives, only that attitude is functional. Do what you need for your healing and involvement. **Interviewer: ** Is there a way for people to contact you? **Chris Bache: ** I'm working on my website, which should be up soon at chrisbache.com. For now, they can find my articles on academia.edu under Chris M. Bache. My university address is cmbache@ysu.edu, but chrisbache.com will soon be the place to reach me. **Stephen Gray: ** I'll hopefully be able to show your contact information on-screen. In the meantime, the spelling is B-A-C-H-E. The book we discussed is incredible—remarkable—and contains much more than what we covered today. Thank you for the conversation and the opportunity to bring these ideas forward. **Chris Bache: ** Thank you, Stephen. I appreciate the conversation and the opportunity to reach your listeners. It's been wonderful sharing this time with you. I look forward to more in the future.