Chris Bache Pre-SPMC 2018 Interview

Marc Caron: Welcome to the Spirit Plant Medicine community here in Vancouver and around the world, and to the Facebook Live audience who may be watching. Today, we have a very special guest, Mr. Chris Bache, joining us with Mr. Stephen Gray. Chris is going to be one of our great presenters at the Spirit Plant Medicine Conference coming up here in just about a month and a half. My name is Marc Caron. I'm really happy to have Chris with us, and of course, my co-producer and organizer, Stephen Gray, with the conference. I'm going to pass it to Stephen to introduce Chris and his work and what we'll be talking about.

Stephen Gray: Sure, thank you, Marc. This is going to be a very brief introduction. There's a bio on the conference website, spiritplantmedicine.com, if anyone wants to read more. I will just say that Chris is a retired university professor from Youngstown, Ohio, who was teaching in the Philosophy and Religious Studies Department, right, Chris?

Chris Bache: Yeah, Philosophy and Religious Studies Department.

Stephen Gray: More relevant to what we're doing today, or more specifically relevant, anyway, is that he became interested in the work of Stanislav Grof, who did a lot of remarkable pioneering work in LSD therapy. Over a period of 20 years, from 1979 to 1999, Chris undertook what Joseph Campbell would probably truly call a hero’s journey of 73 high-dose LSD sessions, privately, with a sitter, eye coverings, and headphones on, with a carefully curated playlist. The results of that are truly stunning. He wrote a lot about it in his 2000 book, Dark Night, Early Dawn, and has a forthcoming book called Diamonds from Heaven, in which he takes the reader through a sequential journey through those 73 sessions, if I'm correct.

Chris Bache: Yes.

Stephen Gray: So, perhaps a good way to start is—as I've mentioned to you in some of our email exchanges, I've got about 1,000,005 questions because I delved back into your work again. I watched the Transpersonal conference interview, a presentation, and another interview with some guy named Ian Campbell, or something like that, as well as reading a bunch of Dark Night, Early Dawn, which actually has transcripts from those journeys in it. So, perhaps for the viewers, maybe you could say a little bit briefly about, beyond what I've said about, how you heard about Stan Grof's work—what led you into doing this? You know, why you?

Chris Bache: Well, let me just frame this first date-wise, and that’s maybe the most important thing to start with. I came out of graduate school in '78, and I started this 20-year journey in 1979 and finished it in '99. So, you have to take your mind back to what was happening in 1978—Stan Grof had just published his first book, Realms of the Human Unconscious. I had come out of graduate school in philosophy and religion. I was an atheistically inclined agnostic. I read Stan's book, and it just clicked. Something deep inside me knew that I had found my life's work. I was convinced that the people working in my field, which was philosophy of religion, who would be making the most important contributions, would be people writing out of an experiential basis, not simply an intellectual basis.

So, I began this process of systematically undertaking the inner journey to push the limits of consciousness as far as I could and see what I could learn using this methodology that Stan had pioneered. I didn't like going outside the law; I would have much rather done this in a legally sanctioned manner. But this was after the Controlled Substances Act was passed in 1970, and the only way I could do this work was to go underground, to do it secretively. So, I learned the method. I studied all the sources. I devoured Stan's next book, LSD Psychotherapy. I always worked with a sitter, worked in a very rigorous manner, and settled down to the work. I worked for four years, then I stopped the work for six years, and then I resumed it for a very intense 10 years. So, it was actually 14 years of active sessions, averaging about five or six sessions a year during that time.

Stephen Gray: So, where you went with this is, you know, almost impossible to conceive of for most of us. I kind of jokingly said to a couple of friends that it made Terence McKenna's description seem like a pleasant walk on a Sunday afternoon. God bless Terence, minus the aliens, of course, the self-replicating basketball aliens, yeah. But to be more serious about it, maybe the simplest way to get it going further at this point is to just ask you to say a little bit about—I'm familiar, more or less, with the sequence of that journey—but essentially, you just kept going deeper. You use the word, by the way, universe, which seems to be a kind of a synonym for what other people might call, you know, the creator, or the creators, or the Holy Spirit, or whatever. In any case, this universe was communicating with you, and it seemed very aware of you doing this as an individual, meeting you in the same place you left off the previous time, and taking you farther each time. Maybe you could talk a little bit about how that went.

Chris Bache: Well, first of all, I worked at very high dose levels. I made a conscious choice after the first three sessions to work at what I considered to be the sort of maximum intensity dose level. I saw myself as simply doing an extended course of LSD psychotherapy. There's psychedelic therapy, low-dose work, and psychedelic therapy, high-dose work. I saw myself doing a series of that over time, and I realized that I was encountering phenomena and pushing boundaries that were not showing up in classical LSD psychotherapy because that method was limited to three sessions maximum. Of course, I was doing many more than that.

I don't recommend, in hindsight, pushing the system as hard as I did. There’s a price to pay along the way. So, I just say that as a preface, as a caveat before we get started. Where I went might just be easiest if I ping through the chapters where I tell the story in Diamonds from Heaven. The first two years, I went through the perinatal level of consciousness, reliving birth, and going through many experiences of birth and death, culminating in the complete shattering of my ego, being turned inside out as I went into the next stage. Sessions always divide between a cleansing portion and an ecstatic portion, a purifying portion, and then the revelatory portion.

In the cleansing portion of the next two years, I went into an ocean of suffering, just vast. You know, I'm jumping into the details too quickly. Let me back up a bit.

Stephen Gray: Sure, quick interruption. Do you mind telling us what dosage you were actually taking in micrograms?

Chris Bache: I was working at 500 to 600 micrograms.

Marc Caron: And, for our listeners, what would be the, you know, when people are doing LSD in a regular setting, if we can even call it that, what's an average dose?

Chris Bache: Hard to say, maybe 100 micrograms. It really depends. A microdot often is 50-75 micrograms, or blotter. It could be 100, 150, something like that. Basically, low dose goes up to 300 micrograms, usually around 200 micrograms. I think many people party at around 100 micrograms. I don't know; I really don't have contacts in the partying psychedelic world. It’s just not my world.

Marc Caron: I understand. I just wanted to maybe get a context for what the average person might relate to.

Chris Bache: This is an extremely intense regimen. It’s challenging, requiring an explorer’s constitution to weather it well. I found that this dialogue opened up between me and the universe, or me and the creative intelligence of the universe, or however you want to language it. I think the caliber and continuity of the conversation, going systematically layer by layer, is not just a result of the drug state or the consciousness, but also a result of the seriousness and thoroughness with which I tried to retain complete consciousness at all levels of the conversation.

I was methodical in recording the conversation, getting it written down within 24 hours after every session, and spent a lot of time in between sessions thinking about what had happened, trying to internalize it. My experience is that the more seriously and conscientiously we engage these deeper states of consciousness, the more seriously and conscientiously they engage us. This spiral took me through a series of death-rebirth processes over these years, systematically leading me into deeper levels of consciousness.

As I said, the first two years culminated in ego death. The next two years took me into what I call the ocean of suffering. It took me deep into the collective psyche of our species. Eventually, I came to understand that what was happening in these sessions was not aimed at my personal transformation but at healing the collective psyche of humanity itself. Over one year, I went into a state I call Deep Time, experiencing my entire life as a simultaneous present. Following years took me through archetypal reality, different dimensions of collective consciousness, reincarnation experiences, and eventually into what Stan calls causal reality, non-dual consciousness, emptiness, entering the primal void.

In the last five years, I encountered what I call the Diamond Luminosity. My understanding is that this is what the Buddhists call Dharmakaya, the domain of light that lies outside Samsara, the luminescent clear light from which all existence emerges. Over 26 sessions, I entered that reality only four times, with intense purification required in between, as deeper states demand purification of the system to maintain coherent cognition.

Stephen Gray: I was just going to ask you about that. It's one of the questions I had written down for myself. You mentioned you have to train yourself to maintain coherent cognition in these radical states. You also use the term "learn to learn." So, I'm thinking about people watching this, in case there's any brave enough to undertake a similar process. Can you say something important about how they need to maintain that coherent cognition and learn to learn?

Chris Bache: I can and will, but first some preliminaries. Never work alone. Always be working with a sitter who knows the ropes, someone familiar with these states. Once you have the conditions of containment that allow for these states to be engaged safely, it's about finding the trust and capacity within yourself to go wherever the session takes you. It’ll take you into excruciating dynamics, but if you surrender completely, in that breaking, it will also heal you and bring you alive. Make every session go as far as possible to avoid leaving unfinished business.

Stephen Gray: One thing you’ve spoken about is the fear of non-existence of the individual self. I found it instructive that while the illusory self dies, individuality doesn’t. Can you offer reassurance about that, especially for medicine people?

Chris Bache: In Vedanta, the individual is illusion, so the goal is dissolving into the infinite. I don't share that conviction. My experience is the form can die, everything may die, but you are reborn in a new world and as a new being. The essence of your life is indestructible. The ego, Chris Bache, is destructible, but the essence is indestructible. As superficial layers perish, there is a liberation of a deeper individuality, a developmental process in reincarnation, emerging over time.

Stephen Gray: This begs so many questions. Regarding the individual and collective ego death and rebirth process, you’ve been shown that we’re approaching an imminent economic and environmental collapse. You’ve called it the Great Death before the Great Awakening. For a consciousness revolution, can you guide those not doing deep work like yours on how to approach this?

Chris Bache: I hope not many would choose the way I did. We are continuously in dialogue with infinite intelligence. When taking psychedelics, our system goes through purification, facing things we'd rather not. This is the universe healing us. In that healing, we open to new levels of intimacy with the universe. Everyone must find their own modulation. This process is happening even without psychedelics, accelerated by spiritual practices. We enter deeper rapport with the universe, touching others' lives, showing no private spiritual practice exists. We're moving into a critical hour in humanity, poised on the edge of profound awakening. This requires collective purification, the Great Death, to open to the Great Awakening.

Stephen Gray: That's beautifully said, and despite the terrifying possibilities, incredibly positive. It shows us there is something available to the species and to all human beings. From there, it almost seems hard to come back to more prosaic specifics. You've referenced reincarnation and I'm curious about that. In your book, you discussed the carryover of experiences from other space-time encounters. Some people might interpret that as being at fault for everything they're experiencing now. If you're living in Bangladesh, for example, with the challenge of floods, do you have responsibility for being in that situation?

Chris Bache: No, no, no. I want to step back for a moment. We're jumping into really heavy topics—psychedelics, deep states of consciousness, humanity's future—and we're about to tackle reincarnation. These are substantive issues deserving time to be unfolded carefully. When I taught Transpersonal Studies, I spent five weeks just examining evidence for rebirth. It takes time to unpack all the nuances. Reincarnation, one of the oldest philosophies, accompanies many primitive beliefs. There are different reincarnation theories and understandings, but the key is we're a learning system. We learn by challenging ourselves, making choices, inheriting consequences, and internalizing them. This learning continues with the soul and species gathering knowledge. We plunge back into the process, activating latent potentials. Classically in the Hindu system, we move through the chakras, reaching the seventh chakra of oneness. The story of reincarnation has been focused on individual karma and evolution, but we've overly personalized it. There's a collective dynamic, an evolutionary dynamic, and what individuals can accomplish is influenced by the species' capability. One of the hardest things is understanding suffering. I don't think there's a simple formula for understanding suffering caused by natural causes, diseases, and human actions. Different perspectives address it at different levels.

Evidence suggests we choose where and with whom we incarnate, even in debilitatingly painful conditions. If there's intelligence in the reincarnation process, there's intelligence in suffering circumstances that we can't make sense of. If we find meaning in deep consciousness states and uncover meaningful connections to past lives, then there's a basis for thinking there's meaning even where we don't understand. When understanding individual suffering, we look at different dynamics. For collective suffering that affects millions, we need a larger picture.

Reincarnation is evolution's higher octave. The universe's creative intelligence folds collective learning forward through species evolution, and through reincarnation, it folds individual learning forward. Individual and collective learnings intertwine because a human being is a species at a certain evolutionary stage. As individuals grow, the species grows.

Our species will reach a point—this is challenging because it's such a long discussion—I feel guilty trying to extract an answer in minutes when it requires a long process.

Stephen Gray: People will have to dive into your work more. One way is by attending the conference and post-conference talk called "The Birth of the Future Human."

Chris Bache: It'll be the first time I give a public lecture dedicated to that topic. I've written about it in "Dark Night, Early Dawn" and "Diamonds from Heaven," but I haven't publicly spoken much about it, so I'm working hard to prepare that presentation.

Marc Caron: I think it's great material. Based on your experience, a lot of questions arise, and I respect the depth of your answers. It's clear they're not easily answered in a sentence. What I appreciate is the curiosity and inspiration you evoke, leading people to explore their own consciousness and how they expand it, especially given your courageous journey. I thank you for that and for giving answers with depth.

Stephen Gray: That almost sounds like an ending. Let's not stop there.

Audience: I just wanted to clarify because we could be here for hours.

Chris Bache: What I've learned in studying literature to write "Lifecycles" is that our circumstances have significance and meaning. They're not random, some meaning is individual, some collective. How we respond and let circumstances change us is vital. We might not understand why things are as they are, but our response to heart and mind situations leads to growth. Across iterations and generations, we and the species grow and change. We're all interconnected.

Stephen Gray: Amazing, isn't it? I have more questions, trying to get my curiosity into simple things. This one involves non-embodied intelligences. Have you encountered anything visual like an entity or being? People talk about that with Ayahuasca. Also, in Native American Church Peyote ceremonies, there's belief in the power of prayer. Do you think a sincere prayer, especially amplified by medicine, can change the material realm? Is the earth an intelligent being?

Chris Bache: Yes and yes. Intention is powerful, especially collective, focused intention. It influences our body, circumstances, and people. David Nichols wrote about subtle activism, where global meditations integrate consciousness into prayerful exercises. Spiritual traditions organize students worldwide at certain times for powerful practices. The spiritual universe is highly populated. Sacred medicine traditions encounter life forms interested in us and willing to work with us. I’ve experienced Ayahuasca and Psilocybin mushroom sessions, encountering universal entities.

LSD has particular characteristics; it's my primary medicine. It lacks historical fields like Peyote and Ayahuasca and pushes into cosmological realms, grinding the ego into dust. You need presence to encounter beings. In LSD sessions, I become different beings and enter strata of consciousness, dissolving into non-individual patterns. Different medicines tune us to consciousness in different ways. I'm convinced the spiritual landscape is hyper-conscious and populated with beings.

Stephen Gray: Your Transpersonal Conference talk intrigued me. You said it was hard to come back after the 20-year journey, feeling a flatness. My understanding, influenced by Buddhist teacher Chögyam Trungpa, emphasizes appreciating this precious human birth. Why did it seem flat to you after that process?

Chris Bache: Good question. I entered this work seeking enlightenment, and I’d meditated for years. I thought LSD sessions would break through blocks and accelerate my enlightenment. However, working in high doses, my experiences transcended personal concerns, exploring the cosmos deeply. Enlightenment is a worthy focus, but my sessions involved cosmic exploration. In the last five years, dissolving into the "Diamond Luminosity" or "Body of God," the heartache of returning became unbearable. Ideally, you open to this intimacy without returning. Psychedelics offer temporary immersion into the universe, but I delved so deeply I couldn’t continue.

When I stopped, I faced profound sadness. It’s a balance of transcendence and immanence. I pushed into transcendence, losing balance in immanence. Regrounding took years, committing to the here and now. Transcendence is good but too much can unmoor you. Enlightenment requires balancing the here and now's sacredness with transcendence's blessings.

Stephen Gray: Could you have achieved the same understandings without such intensity?

Marc Caron: There's a real need for integration after such work. How did you transform and regain joy in life?

Chris Bache: Integration is vital and underrated. Staying near conventional reality, we understand integration through medical and spiritual models. Beyond physical space-time, integration is fundamental. I spent a year writing about it in my book's last chapter "Coming Off the Mountain." I renewed commitment to earth and relationships but found silence exacerbated sadness due to societal prohibitions on psychedelics. I couldn’t share my experiences, affecting integration. Writing "Diamonds from Heaven" helped integrate my lives into a cohesive whole.

Stephen Gray: A lot taken in, maybe end on an uplifting note. Assuming the process works best, what does the future human look like?

Chris Bache: I first...

Chris Bache: We've been building the future human for tens of thousands of years. With every incarnation, every repetitive cycle, we've been activating the form this human being is. We've been learning, stretching, teaching, and growing it, lifetime by lifetime. I think where we're going, what's going to be happening, is all of our former lives are coming together as we become more coherent, more integrated. All of these lives come together. In one session, I experienced all my former lives coming together, like wrapping string around a kite spool, and at a certain point, they fuse. There was an explosion of energy, and they fused. When they fused, this diamond light broke out of my chest and threw me into a completely different state of consciousness. It was individual, but it was a form of individual consciousness that was beyond anything I had ever experienced before. It wasn't simply the sum of the individual lives; all of those lives had been actualized in a higher form of evolutionary expression. The future human was the version I touched. In evolution, we must picture a species where we've healed all the pains of history, where we've healed all divisions against each other and our own soul, where we've opened our heart to all, not only all human beings but all life forms. Our mind is in open communion with the intelligence of the universe. In one of the very last sessions, one of the most difficult I ever went through, I was taken far into the future, deeper into Deep Time than I'd ever been. One of the gems of that session was to experience the archetypal form of the future human, what we are becoming. Truly, we're becoming a planet of Buddhas, a planet of Christs, a planet of Prophets. Picture the highest levels of spiritual realization known in history, individuals who have accomplished this, and picture the entire species operating at that level. What kind of species would we be when the entire species is enlightened, uplifted spiritually, emotionally, and psychologically? That's what we're in the process of becoming. Once we have activated that deep level of our being collectively, then we can really begin to cook. We can begin to do something exciting on the planet, off the planet, into the galaxy. The intelligence that created this universe thinks on a scale that boggles our minds, and I think our planet is one of many hothouses where consciousness is being incubated. But it's not going to stay on this planet. It's going to migrate. It's going to move forward. But in order to make this jump, we first have to grow up. We have to come to terms with what we are, to stop thinking in terms of this body, this life, and open ourselves to the full depth and splendor of the being that lies within.

Stephen Gray: Thank you, beautiful. Does that sound like a good place to end?

Marc Caron: Mark, it could not have been a better segue in this whole conversation to tail off such a deep, inspiring, and thought-provoking discussion, for sure. Thank you very much for that, Chris. I look forward to meeting you in person and hearing your talk at the conference.

Chris Bache: I'm looking forward to it very much. It's going to be marvelous. I can't believe the wonderful people you've gathered for that weekend. I'm really looking forward to it.

Marc Caron: It's growing, and it's just getting more and more popular every day. We're really excited about what will transform here at this year's conference. Chris, I'd love to reach out and extend an invitation to you at some point. If you're interested in doing more of these kinds of conversations to share some of your insights with people, Stephen and I would be happy to facilitate things of that nature. We barely scratched the surface; there's so much to talk about with you. I've got tons of questions myself but am left here a little shell-shocked.

Chris Bache: When we gather in Vancouver, maybe we can sit down and have conversations about where we might take the future conversation.

Stephen Gray: Excellent. Do you have any projected publication date for Diamonds from Heaven, the forthcoming book?

Chris Bache: It'll be out in the second half of 2019. That's all I've been able to get from the publisher. It's in the process, so hopefully, within a year from now, it'll be out.

Stephen Gray: All right, thank you very much. I'm really amazed at the work you've done and grateful, actually. It was very difficult for you to go through that process, as you've made clear, and you've brought back gems to share. It's wonderful.

Chris Bache: Thank you. It's been an honor and a privilege. I'm really looking forward to meeting both of you in person.

Marc Caron: Okay, until we see you in November.

Chris Bache: Awesome. Blessings.

Stephen Gray: Awesome. Good day. Bye. Thanks again, gentlemen. Until next time. I'm stopping my camera.